Bates Motel’s Freddie Highmore and Kerry Ehrin Talk Writing, Triangles, Endings, the Brontes, and More!
Last week we heard from “Bates Motel’s” co-creator Carlton Cuse and co-star Nestor Carbonell (click here in case you missed it); and now that Episode 4.08, which was written by Norman Bates himself (Freddie Highmore), has aired, it’s time for a visit with both Highmore and Cuse’s partner in crime, Kerry Ehrin.
Most of the questions revolve around Highmore’s experiences in the writers room, whether or not he’s able to leave Norman’s persona on the set, what it’s like adapting such a revered property as Psycho, plus the influence of the Bronte sisters’ writings on the show, particularly on Ehrin. Read on for all of that – and more!
Q: Kerry, what influence do you think “Bates Motel” has had on television? Since it started, there have been four or five other series based on horror movies. That’s certainly not a new thing; it’s been happening for years, but do you think it would be happening so much without “Bates Motel” leading the way?
Kerry Ehrin: It’s a good question. I’m sure that it has influenced certain areas of development because any successful show does. I promise you there are a lot of people trying to figure out how to do O.J. Simpson as we speak. That’s just how it works. It’s hard for me to speak to the influence it’s had because, honestly, as a creator, I live so much inside of it and I agree with [co-creator] Carlton [Cuse] that the show is so good. The acting is so good, and it deserves to be recognized. We both get frustrated about that.
Freddie Highmore: I think what Kerry and Carlton have done so successfully with the show that hopefully will influence the way in which other television shows can be made is that without the background of Psycho, without this story being told within that backdrop and as a prequel to Hitchcock’s Psycho, which everyone knows, I wonder whether the show would have been able to be made in the first place just based on this reasonably small premise of a relationship between the mother and the son and the intricacies of that and what it means. I think it’s so interesting… people talk about it [being] in the horror genre, but I really think it’s more of a psychological thriller or just this sort of psychological kind of romance or love story. And I think Kerry and Carlton have been amazing in digging out the nuances and the intricacies of a show based around one relationship between these two people. And so hopefully that just proves that even if a premise seems on the face of it relatively small, there’s so much intricacies and people, and the way in which people live their lives, that means you can make a show out of just that, out of just one single relationship.
Q: Freddie, we recently talked to Nestor about directing episodes of the show. Is this something you want to get into also, directing, or maybe writing more?
Freddie Highmore: Yes, I’d love to… first of all, I’m obviously incredibly grateful to [Carlton] and Kerry for allowing me in the writers room and giving me an opportunity to write an episode and be a part of “Bates Motel” beyond merely acting. And I guess it was born out of this desire to want to be involved in the wider process and it just seemed a little odd to me to put so much into this character for the four, five months that we shoot in Vancouver and then let it completely go and just sort of go away and ignore it for a few months. And then come back and be like, “Oh, let’s just see what’s been happening…” And so that’s, I guess, where the desire was born… I loved the writing experience on “Bates Motel” and being part of that team and am writing more things.
Q: What was the biggest challenge in writing the episode, and who was the character that was the hardest for you to write for?
Freddie Highmore: I guess the hardest thing was to create the dynamic… but if you know the tone of these characters that you’ve lived with for so long, and the introduction of new characters that you don’t know so well, it’s very much getting on the same page as everyone in the [writers] room without any actual sort of physical scenes to watch and to get into. I’m not sure if that’s just sort of avoiding your question, but Kerry will tell you what I struggled with more.
Kerry Ehrin: Well, it was really interesting because, first of all, it was great to have him in the room because it was such a presence of Norman… just because Freddie has lived inside that role and experienced it in all dimensions. So that was really interesting… but the interaction with Romero I would have thought might be the hardest — like Romero might be the hardest character to get inside of as a writer because as an actor [Freddie]’s in a place where he really does not like [Romero]. So I just thought that would be a very interesting thing from a writing point of view. I wondered how he [would handle] that.
Freddie Highmore: There is a sense of battle of control between Norman and Romero in this episode. And I guess sort of secretly inside [I was] like, “Norman’s just got to win all these battles…” And then you have to set your character’s self-interest aside…
Q: This season separating Norman from Norma has really moved the story forward; how do you think being separated from Norma has allowed Norman to evolve and to change?
Freddie Highmore: I think part of the interesting thing about having separated Norma and Norman is that we’ve allowed the mother side to Norman to develop greater. And I think part of that is borne out of the fact that they are physically apart, and so through that sense of missing her and yearning for her, he at times has visions of her, or more commonly starts to slip into that guise of being her. And that’s what was fascinating for me to play this season, those moments of transitions in scenes with Dr. Edwards, for example, where we see Norman slip into the guise of mother and take on this other side. And I feel like that is released because of their physical separation. So that’s been really, really fun to play.
Q: So, like your character then, you sort of agree that he may have been better off just staying at home rather than going to Pine View?
Freddie Highmore: Well, I feel like they have to be together. There’s a scene at the end of [Episode] 4.08 when Norman says this to Norma, and the whole Romero thing comes to the fore… and they do have to be together. They need to be with each other in order to function. And in a way, from Norma’s point of view, I feel she slightly deludes herself by living in this dream, this very happy reality that she created with Romero. But when Norman comes home… it sort of becomes revealed that this is more of a fantasy and a dream of another life, but it’s not a life that she can ever actually have. And so I think Norman… really latches on to that idea of knowing how inseparable they really are. And as much as they want to deny it, or as much as they wish that it might not be true, it always will be. No one will be able to get in between the two of them. No one will be able to break that cord.
Q: We’ve talked about the Norma, Norman, and Romero triangle; but Norman hasn’t really reacted too much to the fact that Dylan and Emma are now together. Do you think that there might be some hard feelings coming down the line on that relationship?
Freddie Highmore: There’s a really interesting scene between Norman and Emma in this episode that I think goes some way towards keeping the audience on Norman’s side to some extent and really feeling for him and seeing that he’s not just a lunatic and that he genuinely does have a moral compass.
Q: Norman is an often intense and introverted character. Some actors say that playing roles like that makes it hard for them to separate themselves from the character when they’ve been playing it for a long time. Is that something that you’ve experienced, Freddie?
Freddie Highmore: Not really, no… what’s been great about the writing… this season is that it’s really been even more so than before focused on those nuanced, interesting moments and the transitions and themes and the keys to sort of unlocking on a deeper level various relationships. That lends itself towards a more sort of introverted take on the character. For example, we’ve had these great scenes between Norman and Dr. Edwards that sort of run four or five pages, and it’s so bold and confident — and trusting too — to allow a scene to play out in its full as opposed to feeling the need to cut the time or cut it back for television. And those moments and those long interesting themes have always been championed by Kerry.
I feel like at the end of the day when you leave and go home, there isn’t that sense of anything lingering over me. I mean, in some ways, not to encourage acting as a form of therapy, but it can be quite cathartic to have a big emotional scene and in the same way when in reality you’re crying with someone or you shout at someone and you feel like you vented all of this energy, nd then you feel kind of good about yourself and relaxed… maybe there is a Norman within me and I’m just allowing him to express it, to make sure it doesn’t impinge on my real life. I don’t know what I’m going to do when the show’s over. Watch out.
Q: Kerry, as the reimagined story of Psycho is taking its own directions, what are some of the biggest challenges with trying to keep it on track with at least some of the events in the original movie?
Kerry Ehrin: I don’t really see those as challenges. Those are more opportunities, and they’re fun. When you can really organically pull in little important bits or an iconic image, a little bit of dialogue, a reference, those are fun. Those are fun to get to use and we use them sparingly. Carlton and I always from the beginning wanted it to feel like a world of its own, but we wanted certain iconic presences like the house, the Psycho house. And when we get to use those things, it’s actually really, really fun. So I wouldn’t say it’s challenging. I’d say it’s sort of delicious… It doesn’t lead the story, and there’s been quite a few Easter eggs this year — not gigantic references from Psycho, but little ones, and those are fun too.
Q: Throughout the series there’s been this overreaching kind of Bronte-esque vibe to the show. The whole series has a bit of a Gothic setting to it. Beyond the Hitchcock mythology and the subject of mental illness, would you say that a large theme within the show kind of reflects on the Brontes’ novels and the idea of loving someone whom you know it isn’t right to love in the way that you love them?
Kerry Ehrin: There’s a huge influence… from the very, very beginning… everyone knows it’s Psycho, right, and everyone knows that it’s Hitchcock. And I think because that movie is two hours, you can live with Norman and you can feel for him in those two hours. But… we’re talking about doing 50 hours of these characters. And it is very intensely about these two characters. I don’t know if any two characters have ever done so much screen time on any show, honestly. It’s kind of amazing. So you need people to kind of buy into this love story so that they’re on the ride with them. And nobody does that better than the Brontes. And I actually studied Victorian Lit in college so it was a huge influence on me, and it was I think probably a personal thing to me to really try to pull out that Gothic romantic doomed lovers [theme], but at the same time you desperately want things to work out for them. It’s a larger than life love… and no one does it better than the Brontes.
Q: Freddie, we know that Norman has this agenda to put on a persona to trick people. From your standpoint, do you think that Norman truly is scared as he admitted to Dr. Edwards? Or is that part of his mask to the rest of the world?
Freddie Highmore: It’s a really interesting question because I remember discussing this with Kerry beforehand and Nestor, who directed the scene on the day. And to me, I think it ultimately is a mixture of both. I think he exploits genuine fears that he has and real emotions that he does feel, instead of entirely making them up. But perhaps he puts on a little bit of a show in exaggerating them in the moment. I think that usually when you’re upset about things, you try hard to cover it up. I always use this phrase of “playing against the emotion” and I feel like, in that moment, Norman perhaps isn’t entirely genuine in that he doesn’t try and behave in the way that usual people would and sort of hide and cover that emotion up. And I feel in doing so, maybe there is a slight sense of manipulation because he’s very open and certain wants Dr. Edwards to feel it. And of course, he has his agenda. His agenda in that scene is to make sure that whatever happens, he’s going to get out of the institution. That’s his driving goal, and that can’t help but affect these genuine feelings that he’s feeling, but that perhaps he uses for his own self-interest.
Kerry Ehrin: One of the really fun things about — if I could add, about writing the show — is that so often in this show, characters are not saying out loud what they’re actually feeling. They’re saying something else, and it’s very layered. And it’s like there’s a whole other emotional dialogue that goes on under each scene as opposed to just what they’re saying. Like the acting is so layered and amazing, those scenes are just really fun to write. And also, this idea that you cannot be both honest and manipulative at the same time is funny because you absolutely can be.
Freddie Highmore: He’s talking with different people, but he feels very similarly about his situation when he’s talking to Norma and when he’s talking to Dr. Edwards… when he’s trying to get home. And so despite the fact that he goes into that in a similar emotional position and with a similar desire, it’s interesting to see the ways in which he plays those two scenes differently to get the effect that he wants. They’re not the same…
Kerry Ehrin: Yes, even though the content is somewhat similar, yes.
Freddie Highmore: And so that’s a sort of guide to how that works and to how he manipulates and is sort of socially aware enough to slightly change his story depending on the situation itself.
Q: To close things out, how do you compare this season with the previous ones?
Freddie Highmore: I feel like the knowing now that we have a five-season arc to the show and that this season that’s currently airing and the next one will be the last… has allowed the writers and Kerry and Carlton to push forward towards an end point with more haste and determination than ever before. There’s not this sense of needing to hold back anything for any longer because now is the time to reap the rewards of the payoff [to] the setup that we had over the entirety of three seasons. And so the payoff is what starts to be developed in this fourth season and will continue into the fifth season. And that’s the most exciting point of the show… what’s great is that we have [this] huge amount of back-story that we know and that we are invested in, and this is the opportunity, in a way, for Norman coming home. There’s a sense of an attempt of a fresh start and of resetting things and moving towards that end point.
Well, we certainly can’t wait to see what the “end point” winds up being. But first we have two more episodes in Season 4 to get through, leading up to next year’s final Season 5. Up this coming Monday is Episode 4.09, “Forever.”
“Bates Motel” Episode 4.09 – “Forever” (airs 5/9/16)
Norman (Freddie Highmore) and Norma (Vera Farmiga) try to reconnect as they plan for the future; frustrated by Norma’s blind eye, Romero (Nestor Carbonell) and Dylan (Max Thieriot) decide to take action for Norman’s own good.
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